Kelly Lewis (00:00) Pink goes good with green. Tiffany Jones (00:01) goes well with green. Kelly Lewis (00:03) It so does. Tiffany Jones (00:05) I'm Tiffany and we're your revenue insiders. Kelly Lewis (00:07) and I'm Kelly. And we are here for a fun bonus episode, all about Wicked. We are joined by the wonderful Raheela Nanji, who I have worked with as my executive coach for probably the last two to three years. This episode is not necessarily about go-to-market, but all about career development. I promised my husband we would not do any analogy episodes. And here we are doing an analogy episode, but I feel okay about it because it's not a how we're comparing it to go to market. We're comparing it to career development. It feels less cringe-worthy. Yes, we agree. Tiffany Jones (00:45) Yeah, I mean, think if we like acknowledge it at the beginning, then maybe a bit less cringe worthy. Kelly Lewis (00:48) Okay. Okay. I am so excited about this. The reason this episode came about is I was on an executive coaching session. If you don't have an executive coach, get one. You don't need to be an executive to have an executive coach. Career coach is for all levels of your career. And Raheela was talking to me about some things that I was processing as I go out on my own and Tiffany Jones (01:00) I Kelly Lewis (01:14) she started referencing Wicked and I was like A. Now I've got to go see the movie and B. This is a great conversation for a larger audience. So we're excited you, our listener, get to kind of enjoy this conversation and hear how you can take inspiration from something in pop culture from Wicked. So Raheela, thank you for joining us. We are so excited you're here. Raheela Nanji (01:35) Thank you so much for inviting me to today, Kelly and Tiffany. I'm so excited and delighted to be here. So thank you. Kelly Lewis (01:41) Of course, of course. Well, let's jump in really quick with an introduction so the listener can hear a little bit more about you and your background. Raheela Nanji (01:52) So I am Raheela Nanji and I am the owner and the founder of Ree Consulting. In terms of my background, I always find it, you know, I consider myself to be really, really lucky because I grew up at the dinner table of entrepreneurs. So when I was growing up, my parents and my dad's family had lots of different businesses. And I think for me, that was so formative about who I am as a person and the roots that I wanted to take as an individual as well. And It also meant that, you know, listening to dinner table conversation around business, just meant that I was never really scared to try things on my own. And I think probably, I hope this is one of the very few times that I've disappointed my dad. When I graduated from university, he was like, okay, which of the, which of the businesses do you want? And I was like, I don't want any of them. And he was like, what do you mean? What do mean you don't want any of them? What have I done this for, if it's not for you? And I was like, well, my dynamic is not. daughter of the boss. It never has been and it never will be. don't have anything to bring to the table right now, apart from a degree. So, he very reluctantly allowed me to go out and work. And that's where I started my marketing career and, you know, fell into it. Absolutely loved it. And then a few years into, my career, my dad approached me to start our first businesses in Dubai. And that was like really great for our relationship and really great for me as an individual. You know, from there, my career progressed, our businesses progressed as well. so marketing has always been something that I've loved. And then more recently, and Kelly, thank you so much for alluding to the coaching in the way that you did. And thank you. really do appreciate that. So coaching has been a more recent love. So probably about four or five years now. And it's something that I decided to officially embark on during COVID. So I now have the privilege of working with companies from Singapore to the West Coast. And I work with incredible individuals and it's such a privilege to my role is to walk alongside people to where they want to go. And it's so rewarding in so many different ways. And it's also very complimented by the marketing practice of my business as well. So I still have quite a foot in the corporate world. But I now have this joy work that is all about other people's aspirations and their ambitions. And it's all about really just helping people to get to where they want to be, whether that's as an individual or an organization. Tiffany Jones (04:14) such a fascinating career. I want to jump right in because I'm just like, I want to pick your brain on this topic specifically. Kelly and I went and saw Wicked and the first thing I said to Kelly when the movie wrapped up was it was so glaringly obvious to me when I think about, and then I know we're going to use the cringy analogy of like Wicked to business. But when I watched it, Elphaba to me was like the person who's always doing their exceptional at the execution work that they're doing and they don't understand why they're not. Raheela Nanji (04:20) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tiffany Jones (04:41) getting any further, like why they don't fit in or why leadership doesn't see them as important or valuable. And Glinda is the example of someone who negotiates their way to the top without actually having any real skill to do anything. And I think so many people, women specifically, get stuck in that place in their career where they're one or the other and they don't know how to bridge the gap. And I would love to hear your thoughts on like either from a coaching perspective or just your general business knowledge like Have you seen, did you see that in the movie? Have you seen that with any of the coaching you've done? Raheela Nanji (05:15) Yeah, and Tiffany, thank you so much bringing that up. I was also really, really struck by that as I watched the movie as well. And it did have parallels to my personal life, my professional life, what I've seen around with friends as well. And I think with somebody like Elphaba, who is extremely competent, she's intelligent, she's educated, she's got like, she takes every single box and it is... Unfortunately, as you raised, it does seem to happen often with females where they do, you know, they're overlooked for promotion and they seem to, and particularly in case of Elphaba, but she remained so tied to her values. You know, she didn't want to deviate away from them, even though in some cases it may have been a more advantageous thing for her to do. She chose not to do that. And I think very often as individuals, as people with careers, whether you're male or female, you sit in this dilemma of do I follow my personal values and do what my instinct tells me to do? Or do I follow my ambition, which may take me down a different route? And it's such a common, it is such a common theme in conversations. And it's, it's a really tough one to go through because there isn't always necessarily one correct answer. It's so individual. Kelly Lewis (06:32) I look back at my career and I think through there were definitely moments that I didn't disregard my values, but definitely chose ambition over values, especially when I was more junior. And I think it's funny as I get more senior, maybe it's because I have more privilege and the ability to do this. I'm definitely making career choices more based on values and thinking about that. Maybe it's because I'm a mom. I don't know, but it's definitely Raheela Nanji (06:41) Hmm Mm-hmm. Kelly Lewis (06:59) something I am observing in my own career. So I think it's such a good analogy to what so many women go through. Raheela Nanji (07:02) Mm-hmm. Tiffany Jones (07:06) I mean, I think from some extent, you, I think being a Galinda and like not having any of the execution ability, like doesn't set you up for success and power. So even if you like abandon all your values, like you're not going to be successful, just navigating, you'll get to a certain point and then it'll start to like crumble around you. But I think it's not always like abandoning your values, but kind of stretching to get to a point where you can't, your values can impact more than just what you're doing. Like, you sometimes have to navigate or bend or stretch, I think, in ways, like in my career, I certainly have to take those advancement steps to then have the privilege, did you put it, Kelly, to then lead with your values and start to change the landscape of how some of those things operate. Raheela Nanji (07:48) Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. That's a really a great way of looking at it because you're not necessarily compromising self in that you're still being true to yourself, to your values and maybe your organizational values as well. And potentially helping the people that might report into you or even your peers. And that's huge in itself. So it doesn't always have to be one or the other. You can find creative ways of combining things that the you know, when you ask yourself the question that actually feels okay with like genuinely okay, rather than surface level, okay. Kelly Lewis (08:22) have been in so many situations where I people on my team or in the company that I'm working at where I look at them and I say, you are amazing and I see you are amazing. Like the work you are executing on is so great and there's an overwhelming frustration because I know that the people around them see the great work but don't necessarily see them as an up and coming leader. If you were coaching those individuals, Raheela where would you start? Raheela Nanji (08:48) that's a really great question. And it is one that comes up really often. And I think that's where, you know, if we look at Elphaba and what she brings to the table in terms of, let's call it substance for argument's sake, you've got Glinda and what she brings to the table is style. And I think that there are traits that we can take from Glinda's character. You know, for example, she knows how to work a room. She leads with confidence. She really knows who she is within those arenas as well. So somebody that is starting out in their career and is already very capable, very good at what they're doing, I do think this is where we can go a bit pink and see, okay, what does Glinda do well and how can we look at potentially and in a way that is aligned with the person's aspirations and values, start to incorporate some of those pieces in. So, you What are people saying about them? What are the rooms that, what are people saying in the rooms that they're not personally in as well? And that's where that piece comes in. And it's very much, I think at the beginning, not being afraid to ask the question around, okay, what was said about me in this meeting or what feedback do you have for me? And this is where like asking, I think really open-ended questions without being personally affected by what the response is. and asking the right people. Tiffany Jones (10:10) Totally. And I love the concept of a personal brand. I do think that that's one thing that like when you're early on in your ambitious career goals, you see yourself moving into leadership. That's not an obvious step that you realize you need to take. I have a peer at my current company who I love dearly and she talks about brag documents and the importance of creating these like brag documents and noting all the things you did. Raheela Nanji (10:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tiffany Jones (10:33) because it's so important to not only have a brand, but to zoom out your work as part of your brand and explain how those two are connected. And I do think, Kelly, to your question, that's often what I see missing in people is that secret sauce of being able to stitch the bigger picture about themselves and their work and not just the individual projects or activities. Raheela Nanji (10:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Kelly Lewis (10:55) So another theme that comes across a lot throughout this movie is the cost of ambition. Raheela, talk to us about how you saw that in the movie and kind of the lessons we can take from that. Raheela Nanji (11:02) Hmm I really love that question. And I think that the cost of ambition as a theme came up for me at various places through the film and what was interesting. So if I think about when she enters Shiz, when Elphaba, both of them, but when Elphaba enters Shiz and she does what she does and there's the whole magical piece that is associated with that. And that's when the professor starts to speak to her about magic potential, meeting the wizard, like all of those pieces. And you can see the shift in, in Elphaba around, you know, finally realizing that she could have ambition. And so I think that's where it started coming in as a really strong theme for me. And when she then sings about it and she talks about, know, basically she's singing and she's saying, what is it? It's something like, I am unlimited, like her future is unlimited. So she talks about that there. then towards the end in one of the final scenes where it's two of them and they're actually, Elphaba is inviting Glinda to come with her. And that's where she starts to say, you know, our future is unlimited. And I found that to be really interesting too. And to your point about the cost of ambition, that's where it came to a head for me because they both made their choices. So Glinda's ambition was to be popular, to be seen, to do those things that were very much on her brand. Whereas Elphaba wanted to, my interpretation was that she wanted to make a difference in the world. She wanted to really have an impact. And she then makes her choice, well, they both make their choices. What I found particularly powerful towards the end of that scene was that Elphaba then crashes through a glass window, which to me represented a glass ceiling. So taking that back to the workplace, you can see where my mind went there. So that was my perspective. How about yours? Kelly Lewis (12:56) So this brought up for me a exercise you and I went through, and I've actually replicated with team members and individuals that are mentored around a value exercise on understanding what your values are and actually writing them down and solidifying them. I think you see that moment in the movie where they're unconsciously kind of having that discussion in their head, but the more proactive you can be about thinking about those things. So when you're in the situation, you have to make decisions, you know what your values are and where you're going to go. I don't know, Raheela, if you want to talk a little bit about that exercise, but I think that is something that's been really impactful for me and I've taken on to use as a leader as well. Raheela Nanji (13:40) Thank so much. Yeah. So that, that exercise was really, it was a massive list of, of values alphabetized and the whole exercise is, okay, take those away and really speak to the ones that like highlight the ones that speak to you and the ones that you really want to embody. And it's an exercise that you can do as an individual, as a team, as an organization. And I think having that almost as our cornerstones can really help to know whether we, we remain aligned with what We want to be in, they can change, they can grow, can shift and they will through our careers. You mentioned it just now yourself, Kelly. And I think that just having those pieces to just again, put our brands to can be really, really helpful, almost as a personal rubric, like does this align with my values? Yes or no. Okay. And then make a decision accordingly. Tiffany Jones (14:30) Yeah, and you know, when you're talking about that cost of ambition piece, what I noticed was after that moment that you described when they first get to shiz and she does that like big, the big explosion happens and the teacher starts to pay attention is from that point on, you see the conflict in Elphaba's personality of really trying to figure out like, does she want to fit in or is it more important for her to be who she's always been? And you see that evolve again as her and Galinda become better friends and they go. Raheela Nanji (14:34) Woo. and Tiffany Jones (14:58) to Oz Dust, I think was the name of like the little club that they go to, but like you see that internal battle like very well, like the facial acting in Wicked was so key to watching how she was processing like all of those moments. And even when they, know, Glenda comes up and does the dance with her and mimics that like her facial expressions there and the feeling of being accepted or having that kind of like, what does influence look like or feel like and watching that struggle. I think was so impactful to me in kind of like how I was framing the difference between the two because even later on, Galinda has the same struggle. You see her like processing who does she go after? Does she go after being popular? Does she go after being empathetic? Which is she's getting that from Elphaba really. That's her, one of her core values. So it's really interesting to watch the influence they have on each other throughout the film as well. Raheela Nanji (15:48) Yeah, absolutely. Kelly Lewis (15:51) And I think when it comes to cost of ambition, it's the alphabet hiding a little bit of who she is at first and not having the confidence to really be herself and then how that grows over time as well. It's really interesting to watch. Raheela Nanji (16:04) Yeah. I think with the confidence piece, that was one that I reflected on on a lot. And I think that when, when Elphaba arrives at Shiz, you know, the whole, not dissimilarly to the way that it was for Glinda, but the whole, like everything stops for her. And she, in that space and to what you were saying, Tiffany, about facial expressions, like she... I don't know if it's because she was so used to it, but she owned that space in a way that isn't necessarily aligned with somebody that's not confident. So she, she knew, she knew how she had to be in that space. And maybe it was because she'd been there so many times and you know, no, didn't eat grass as a child, whatever it was that she said. But that was, it wasn't always indicative to me of somebody that doesn't have confidence. So it was very interesting because I think in some areas she was very confident. Tiffany Jones (16:37) Mm-hmm. Raheela Nanji (16:57) But around social skills and that other piece that we talked about earlier, she didn't have that yet. Tiffany Jones (17:03) Yeah, well, in that Oz Dust scene, someone says to Glinda that, you know, she really doesn't care what people think, talking about Elphaba doing the dance in the middle of the dance floor. And Glinda says, like, no, she does. She does care what people think. She just hides it really well. And I think that she has those, you develop these patterns, and even we do in business, that are these false confidence, like you know exactly what to say or how to say it. So you repeat it so many times that. Raheela Nanji (17:15) Yeah. Okay. Tiffany Jones (17:28) it comes off as confidence when you haven't really done the internal coaching work to build that confidence up yourself. Raheela Nanji (17:32) Yeah, exactly right. Kelly Lewis (17:35) Okay, so one moment in the movie that really hit home for me, like I was kind of struck and I was like, this is why Raheela wanted me to go see this movie, was around when Elphaba realizes that her original ambitions and goals to be with the wizard had changed. And I think this is something I see quite frequently and I feel myself is Throughout my career, over the 20 years, I've had different career goals and things that I thought I wanted to be, things I thought I wanted to do. And those moments when I realized that maybe those career goals are changing are so hard. Because you have to decide, is this just a moment in time? Am I having a crisis here? Or is this truly have my values changed? Or has my ambition changed and I'm trying to go in a different direction and that's okay and accepting that your career might not be the standard path that you thought it was going to be and how you process and accept that. Tiffany Jones (18:22) Thank Kelly Lewis (18:40) I'm just curious, do you see that in a lot of clients you work with, Raheela, and how do you work with them to help them understand kind of that change in ambition or change in path? Raheela Nanji (18:51) Such a great question, Kelly. And yes, I see it with my clients. I've seen it in myself. You know, we get to points in our careers where it is, it's exactly like, it's exactly like that scene where this is all I've ever wanted in my life. And I don't want it anymore. And where do you then go from there? If you've like basically paved the way to get there and that's what your heart has been set on. And, and in those instances, I think that it comes back to what we've discussed earlier with regards to values and who do you want to be because we are the version of ourselves that we are today is going to potentially be different to the version of ourselves even two months ago, six months ago, depending on the work that we've done on ourselves. So I think consistently evaluating our path to make sure that, okay, does this still lead us where we want it to go? Whether it's a yellow brick road, whatever we want to call it. I think having those moments of reflection to say, okay, is this still what I want? What I truly, truly want? And if it's not being okay with that as well. So I think rather than almost getting to the destination and realizing at that point that it's not what we want, having those points of reflection further, like maybe have a quarterly check in with yourself to be like, okay, these are the goals that I set for the year or for the next five years. How do I still feel about them? and being open to what comes up when you have your internal dialogue or your external dialogue. Tiffany Jones (20:22) I love that value exercise that you two were talking about because I think that that helps so much because when you watch Elphaba realize, Kelly, to your point that her ambitions have changed, it's not because her values changed in that moment. She realized that what she thought was the answer to fulfilling those values wasn't the right answer. And so now she's grappling with, like when you get too specific, I think with your goals, and I hate the question in like interviews, like what's your five-year plan or 10-year plan? Raheela Nanji (20:34) Hmm. Thank Tiffany Jones (20:48) It's just so unrealistic for anyone to actually know what they're going to be doing in five or 10 years. But to know what you want, like from a theoretical standpoint or value or like long-term, like type of influence you want, like if Elva thought my influences to like the greater good of Oz because of how I was treated and how the animals are being treated, then it's not as much of a conflict in realizing that the wizard is not the person to get her to that next step. But because Raheela Nanji (21:13) Mm-hmm. Tiffany Jones (21:15) Her focus was so much on like the wizard was the answer. She's left with that like that moment of really grappling with her whole world kind of crumbling around her and having to then make such rapid decisions at that point to figure out what she's doing next. Raheela Nanji (21:29) Yeah. And I think with that point, I know this has come up in another one of your podcasts, just the whole group think, because the whole of us thought that, you know, the is the answer to everything. And I think that piece really plays a part in what you just shared, because that's what you've always been led to believe. Then country, where do you go from there? Tiffany Jones (21:36) Yeah. Yeah, I think that lends perfectly to what we are trying to do here, which is have everyone create their own point of view. Thought leadership is such an important part of how you drive your own ambition and move your career along. So I'd love to hear from you, Raheela, if you would like to leave our listeners with a question to help them form their own point of view. Raheela Nanji (21:56) Thank you. Thank you. I would love to leave the listeners with a question. I'm keeping it wicked theme-esque. The question is going to be, how are you or how would you like to defy gravity? Kelly Lewis (22:23) good. I like that. That is. That's going to take some reflection. But I love that question. Well, this was fun. Definitely different than our normal podcast, but I love that we're focused on career development. Raheela, thank you for everything. It has made such an impact on my career. know, Tiffany, you've had executive coaches throughout your career. Tiffany Jones (22:24) That's a good one. Okay, that's a lot to think about. Raheela Nanji (22:28) Mm-hmm. Kelly Lewis (22:46) helpful to have someone to listen to and guide you and be on the path because leadership and career development can be lonely if you don't have someone with you. Tiffany Jones (22:55) Yes, totally agreed. Thank you everyone for joining and thank you, Raheela. We really appreciate it. Kelly Lewis (22:57) Thanks. Raheela Nanji (23:01) And thank you both so much. This has been wonderful and I really appreciate the privilege. Thank you. Kelly Lewis (23:06) Bye everyone. Tiffany Jones (23:08) Bye. Raheela Nanji (23:08) Bye.